... that has often reached acrimonious levels...

Let's re-phrase the original question to read:

"can cables make any difference?"

Next, let's segment the definition of cables as follows:

1.0 - Analogue Interconnect Cables

1.1 - El Cheapo "come with the box" variety (S/E)
1.2 - Reasonably-priced decent cables (S/E)
1.3 - Ridiculously expensive "boutique" cables (S/E)
1.4 - XLR-terminated fully-balanced interconnects

2.0 - Digital Interconnect (electrical) Cables

2.1 - El Cheapo "come with the box" variety (S/PDIF)
2.2 - Reasonably-priced decent cables (S/PDIF)
2.3 - Ridiculously expensive "boutique" cables (S/PDIF)
2.4 - XLR-terminated 110ohm cables (AES/EBU)

3.0 - Speaker Cables

3.1 - Rip Cord or similar crappy wiring
3.2 - Reasonably-priced decent cables (single-wired)
3.3 - Reasonably-priced decent cables (bi-wired)
3.4 - Ridiculously expensive "boutique" cables


Now, let's revisit the question in the context of this segmentation...

I'm sure that most, if not all, would agree that any reasonably priced decent cable significantly outperforms those bloody awful freebie interconnects and basic ripcord used as speaker wires. (Anyone not able to detect any difference in this scenario should find another hobby...)

The real question sits in the differences between "reasonably priced decent cables" and the esoteric-priced "boutique cables"...

Question A: Can ANY difference be detected?
Question B: Does the difference warrant the price?

From personal experience, the answer to A. is a YES - the differences ARE detectable and the magnitude of the differences varies with the "mix" of equipment and cables (from minor to quite significant).

The answer to B. is not quite as clear-cut as it is a personal viewpoint and not an absolute. Personally, I could not (and would not) justify the expenditure beyond a certain point along the improvement:cost curve.

Is there some valid and generic formula that can be used to determine a "budget" for cabling as some percentage of total spend? I don't believe there is! I DO believe, however, that there is a minimum absolute spend required to cross the divide between those cruddy handouts/bellwire and reasonably-priced decent cables. Just how this "fixed minimum amount" translates into a percentage across a range of equipment budgets is another matter altogether.

Finally, the argument around single-ended versus balanced...

For shortish runs in a low-electrical-noise environment, the two come out equal in terms of sound quality. When, however, either the cable runs exceed 5m and/or the ambient level of electrical noise is high, balanced outperforms single-ended on a cable-for-cable basis.

In closing, to blithely toss out a line that states unequivocably that "cables make no difference at all" is either deliberate "stirring of the pot" or demonstrates a lack of first-hand experimentation with various cables.

Some great posts here :)

As everyone has said: of course cables make a difference. Although, I must admit, I'd cry at the thought of spending £5k on a 2m pair of Nordost Valhallas...

Now, I wonder how much better these would be than a pair of QED Silver Anniversary XT or similarly priced Ecosse cable?

If you spent £5k on a pair of speaker cables, then perhaps the ears would be more willing to accept positive differences?

I've heard great things about the Gotham speaker cable knocking around on eBay, which cost me £30. Shall report back when they arrive.

The prestige of owning £1000+ cables and interconnects perhaps outweighs the real-world benefit to some people. In my opinion, I would definitely feel like I'd been "had" by someone.

The NVA gear looks shockingly good by the way.

A good thread indeed.

I've only a few of things to add:
1. Simply spending more never guarantees improvement. This is especially true in hifi, and even more especially true with regard to hifi cabling. However quality can cost money so allocating more funds may increase the chances of finding a better cable.
2. Value for money depends on many things. One of these (as pointed out already in this thread is the available budget of the individual purchaser. It is possible that a £2000 cable may represent good quality with someone with the world's greatest (and perhaps most expensive) hifi, but clearly they would have to be ludicrously wealthy. Personally, given my income (can't complain, but not ludicrously wealthy!) and what I've heard of cables, anything over £100 would be difficult to justify.

NVA kit: The P90 and Phono 2 that have been in my system sound very very good (A80 power amps arriving this week). Also they are extremely good value (by any sub £1k standards - and possibly higher - I've never properly auditioned more expensive). The NVA SSP cable is the best that's ever been in my system - incredibly neutral (I want to avoid saying 'open' or 'detailed' because that might imply brightness, which the SSP is not).
I'm not entirely sure why we don't read and hear more of NVA generally (I'm sure NVA supremo Mr. Dunn has his thoughts on this), there is a huge raft of products available on their ebay shop. NVA kit appears to have been reviewed back in the 1990s, but has now become a rather well kept secret. However, NVA seems to be gathering some momentum on this forum. My only worry is that as demand increases, NVA prices may go up!

The Gotham cable...
I picked up a pair a couple of weeks ago off ebay for 10 quid. In my system it replaced a short run of NVA SSP from preamp to power amp. For reasons that are unimportant here, I had to move the position of the power amp and the SSP was too short. I needed a longer run and thought I'd give the £10 Gotham a go. At £10 one can only go a little wrong, and I think that the Gotham keeps on a pleasing course. It's a funny creature - it has a definite, though not unpleasant sound: A very warm and syrupy tweak. For £10 I can recommend it, though I will be reverting to the NVA SSP connection as soon as I can afford it.
Having said that, this week I have the opportunity to try out properly a couple of the other (cheaper) NVA cables, so things are still in the balance!

DF

Quote:

Mains cables and interconnects all sound the same, speaker leads do radically alter the sound especially if not thick enough. I use 4 parallel lengths of 79 strand per speaker. After experimenting I find it's better to just parallel them rather than biwire.

Interesting thread on the Gotham interconnects knocking about on eBay:

http://www.rdhworld.co.uk/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=6583&p=1

Perception is an interesting thing.
Personally I rate my perception of cables as follows:

1. Interconnects: Completely sold on the idea that they are worth paying attention to (NVA SSP are the best I've tried - and don't cost the earth).
2. Speaker cables: Fairly convinced, though not as much as the interconnects.
3. Mains cables: Yet to be convinced.

At the risk of sounding pompous, I agree with Dev that the "better" one's system, the more the differences / improvements between cables can be resolved. Indeed, perhaps the definition of component and overall system quality is how well it resolves differences between recordings, formats and other components (cables included). Oops. I sounded pompous.

At the same time there are clearly a lot of charlatans out there pedaling bell wire at obcene prices. Expensive cables do not necessary equal better cables. Moreover, system inadequacies may make any improvements (or differences) in cable choice unresolvable. Try in your own system before you buy!

DF

Quote:

Nobody can tell the difference between interconnects and mains leads because there is just no difference to be heard. Simple really.

Hi oldphrt. Perhaps your reply could be rephrased to:

"I can't tell the difference between different interconnects and mains leads..."

Although I think that the "ordinary" mains leads issue is rather contentious - not counting filtered or unorthodox designs - interconnects and speaker cable DO make a difference in my own listening experiences.

Personally though, I would avoid dealers when it comes to cable and look for eBay offers, which come without marketing (hype), overheads etc. On a DIY forum, someone said something like: "I believe in audiophile products, when I can get them at frugalphile(tm) prices!"

These cables would make most people think twice about spending £50+ of a pair of interconnects:

Canare Interconnects

Canare Forum Thread

I have watched this thread with interest, determined not to post because this discussion has been done to death on audio and AV forums on both sides of the pond.

However I have succumbed to temptation and feel the need to contribute my two pennyworth!

Cables have an effect. In my view, in many (most) systems, those effects can be quite small (positive or negative). The thought that you can make a silk purse out of the proverbial sow's ear by using a mains cable that cost the same as the amp is laughable.

However, when an audio system reaches a certain level and is capable of a reasonable approximation to live soundstage, fine tuning of the sound by choice of cable (interconnect, speaker, digital or power) can be worthwhile. Can the changes be detected during blind testing? Yes, nost certainly because I've carried out those tests on listeners.

Whic changes make the most obvious effects? I'm not sure there's a clear cut amswer because all have had some effect.

In summary, if you have a budget system, upgrade the equipment first. If you have a high end system that's really singing, then try the effect of cabler changes. I'm sure you'll hear some differences.

Of course we should also include discussion on other tweaks such as racks, power conditioners and room treatments.

Well, thats my rant off my chest!

"Hi oldphrt. Perhaps your reply could be rephrased to:

"I can't tell the difference between different interconnects and mains leads...""



I didn't invent either the laws of physics or common sense. There is nothing in a small piece of screened wire, no matter how poorly made, that can alter the characteristics or sound of a mid impedance audio signal.

Mains leads aren't even in the signal path.

You want them to sound different because you've wasted money on them, that's all. No need for anyone else to make the same mistake so that's where I come in.